Thoughts on the 2024 superteam challenge in Eindhoven

Hi everyone,

I’ve always been a fan of the superteam concept, which is letting teams from different countries work together to play matches on a larger field. I think it is a great way to stimulate contact and collaboration between the teams. It is also a great opportunity for the less experienced teams to learn from the experienced teams. But I think it can be organized better to really help promote these values. Based on my experience mentoring teams in past championships I would like to discuss the following topics:

1. Match schedule
I noticed the superteam matches being scheduled during the individual matches and interviews in Bordeaux last year, which is not the best moment to be doing superteam matches because all teams are focused on their Individual matches or upcoming interview. Teams are not willing to try out new things because they are either afraid that something will break or they simply don’t prioritize it above their upcoming matches/interview. Also, teams are less willing to help other teams when they have a busy schedule ahead. The way the superteam matches were scheduled in Hannover recently is in my opinion the best way. The superteam matches were held after the individual matches and after the interviews so that the teams could go all out with their robots. I get that scheduling it this way is not always possible, but something in this style should be manageable.

2. Team distribution
I noticed from past championships for example last year in Bordeaux or a week ago in Hannover that experienced teams (higher tournament ranks) were able to be grouped together and less experienced teams (lower tournament ranks) would be grouped together as well. The rules don’t state how superteams should be distributed, but I think this phenomenon should be avoided by taking a more controlled approach in distributing superteams. By distributing the teams more evenly based on their performance in the tournament, the superteams are stimulated to really help each other and learn from each other in order to perform the best in the superteam competition. The superteam matches are usually planned later in the championship. Instead of determining the superteams way beforehand the competition, the tournament results of the first competition days could be used to distribute the teams more evenly based on the team’s current rank in the tournament. For example let’s assume that the first superteam match is played on day 3, then the results of the individual rounds in terms of ranking up to day 2 could be used to distribute the superteams. In the case of having 20 teams and 4 superteams, one could distribute the current (day 2) leading 5 teams in the tournament each in a different superteam. Then do the same to the next 5 teams and so on.

Please let me know what your take is on these topics.

Regards,
Nawin
Roboticus Mentor

4 Likes

Hi,

I really like this approach, as I saw similar stuff happening as well in other competitions. And since the SuperTeam matches should be later in the competition, it wouldn’t be that much more work for the organizers.

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Hi Nawin,

you hit all the points we would - sometimes logistics make it hard to do it like that but generally speaking we try - no promises that short term schedule changes won’t interfere though - as it stands SuperTeams are almost last; also there is a bit of tension between trying to get SuperTeam members in contact early and trying to distribute more evenly). We do try to schedule to maximize team interactions and networking opportunities. To that end we do have the Discord now in addition to the forum. If you have other ideas in that direction we’re all ears.

Best Regards
David

I get the argument earlier contact vs. more evenly team distribution, but from my experience teams aren’t really bothered with superteam preparations up until a few hours before the first superteam matches even if they know their superteam since the start of the competition. I noticed the same behavior in Hannover. But that’s my take on it, could we maybe do a discord poll to see what teams prefer, or maybe add a poll link to the next newsletter?

Update:

We started a discord vote, feel free to cast your vote:

The 2024 organization is currently looking at the possibilities of integrating this proposal.

Hello,

both superteam schedule & team distribution were implemented this year in Eindhoven according to this proposal. (Scheduled after individual games and distributing teams based on first day’s rankings). Have you noticed anything that could be still fixed in the future?

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

Thank you for trying out this proposal! I think the games were entertaining to watch, there were no significant score differences which indicates that this team balancing method probably took effect. The superteam schedule also seemed appropriate. I do have some thoughts on refining this idea:

More included rounds
This team balancing method according to rank works best with more rounds, the more rounds the stronger the ranks, the better the team balancing. In Eindhoven only the 4 rounds of competition day 1 were included, adding additional rounds of day 2 could improve this method. This could be hard to manage on an organizational level, but as someone in the discord server proposed it might be possible to create an automated algorithm/excel sheet that only needs the necessary parameters to come up with the final superteams.

An additional parameter
Someone in the discord server also proposed to take into account the amount of goals scored per team to further determine which teams are placed in which superteam. That being said, it will be a lot of work to do this manually. An automated excel sheet is probably preferred. Also, the bye games (0-10 score) should be accounted for as these are usually given to the teams with lower ranks.

Damaged robots and substitutions
The current superteam rules make it easy for teams with less well performing robots to just give up and declare their robot damaged while giving their superteam spot to the second robot of another team. This phenomenon goes against the values of the superteam challenge. While it is not always possible to avoid this situation, it might be beneficial to revise the rules so that teams are really encouraged to keep trying and help each other in order to get the best team line-up possible.

I also wanted to mention that I really liked the idea of setting up the team tables according to the superteams. I can imagine that it was a bit of a hazzle to change it mid competition, but in my opinion totally worth it. Props to the organization for that!

Regards,
Nawin

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Hello, this is Ethan Lin from team Reset,
Based on this year’s experience, we’d like to propose some adjustments and suggestions to make the process more enjoyable

  1. Superteam Team Distribution
    Similar to team Roboticus, after the first game day, due to the ranking system, stronger teams might not necessarily be ranked at the top. However, the superteams were decided after the first day, leading to strong teams being grouped. For example, the champion superteam of Open comprised teams ranked 1 and 3 this year. To ensure fair play and a better experience, we suggest deciding the teams after 8 rounds, when the rankings are basically settled.

  2. Practicing for Superteam
    The superteam games were arranged on the morning of day 3, but teams were prohibited from practicing on the large field anytime before the actual game. Moreover, even on the morning of day 3, during the “practice session,” teams couldn’t even run motors and test if their robots function correctly. This causes lots of malfunctions in robots and leads to a situation where only two robots are able to move in one team.

  3. Schedule
    We suggest playing the individual semi-finals and finals before superteam so that teams who do not need to attend those games could decide between watching the games or practicing for superteam games on the big field. In addition, teams in the semi-finals and finals do not have to switch settings for superteam, which might cause issues during their individual ranking games.

  4. Game Time
    There were only 6 minutes per half for superteam games, yet 10 minutes for regular games. Superteam features more robots and a larger court, meaning more chaos and uncertainty. This leaves no time for teams to adjust and demonstrate their full capabilities on the field. We hope each half can return to 10 minutes.

Best regards,
Ethan Lin

2 Likes

Thanks for your suggestions.

Distributing teams based on more rounds played looks to be quite challenging. We want to let teams know about the superteam mates in advance so they can collaborate, adjust robots and help each other. Based on this year’s schedule, superteams would get released at the end of competition day 2, which leaves almost no time for collaboration as superteam matches started in the morning on 3rd day.

Damaged robots is a big issue. There certainly will be a discussion about this during 2025 ruleset open call.

Only 6 minutes? I was under impression that we played 10 minutes each half.

Hi Adrian,

Due to delays with setting up the communication modules & the compression of the schedule from external factors, we had to run 6 minute halves for the Superteam preliminary rounds.

Further on this same point, due to these same external factors, you’ll notice that the majority of the schedule had to fit within 3 days, rather than the usual 4.5.

We were also happy with these Superteam changes and wish to further refine them for next year with (hopefully) more time to work with.

Regards, William