All Discord answers:
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Emil_2vs2_IROP — 7/6/26, 11:41 AM
Finally, this change would resolve the ongoing disputes regarding the use of red light or red components (which are common in line-tracking sensors or on boards like the OpenMV camera due to its red PCB). This issue caused heated debates from regional qualifiers all the way to the European Championship in Vienna, where one team even withdrew its placement because of the controversy. The core of the argument has always been the difficult distinction between red and orange, and whether red light actually interferes with the robots’ sensors or not. Our proposal is to change the color of the 3D-printed shell [of the ball] to a transparent (clear/white) material. This would make tracking via infrared sensors significantly easier again. As a result, the competitive advantage currently gained through expensive hardware would diminish in favor of actual technical innovation, ultimately making the entry into the 2v2 Infrared league accessible and viable for new teams once again.
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Theo | Mathimazierer — 7/9/26, 9:52 PM
Hello, I think the camera systems aren’t a direct adventage. For example the world champion (to my knowledge) also didn’t use any camera and just IR, so did the 3rd placed team. I think seeing it with the camera is a nice addition for teams who have problems with the IR-Sensors, and have a powerful vision system anyways, but I don’t think it’s a clear advantage. Also the lightweight (infrared) game is still very different from the vision game, it’s a lot faster, relies on other strategies etc. So the gab to vision is still there, because you, in order to be a competetive team, have to rewrite the whole strategy. Because of the red parts, I clearly see your point, but if teams from now on know that camera systems are used, it may be easierer to plan without these parts (or cover these up). Also I think it’s important to move on from old things and try out something new, like what happened with the ball, especially right now where ai detecting is so easy.
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Julius [Bodenseekoalas] — 7/10/26, 11:54 AM
Hi! I think this proposal would be a major improvement and, honestly, a great solution to last year’s somewhat rushed rule change (introducing the orange ball without setting clear rules for red components). @Theo: I find your argument a bit confusing. It doesn’t really make sense to say that the solution to the problem is simply avoiding all red parts. You mentioned that completely avoiding red/orange components is what differentiates IR from Vision. But that’s not quite right, because even in Vision, these colors are technically banned (like red LEDs, for example). Making the allowed color the only difference between the leagues would just benefit teams using cameras, since it makes it even easier for them to copy the vision systems from older teams. (Let’s be real, this happens most of the time anyway—for instance, your own team uses a setup that’s incredibly similar to the older team ‘Faabs’ from your school). On the flip side, it just makes things unnecessarily complicated for other teams. They’d have to use less effective white LEDs for line detection or less suitable white LEDs for light barriers, and so on. In my opinion, that kind of league setup doesn’t really make sense anymore if the orange ball persists.
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Tobias [Bodensee Devils] — 7/10/26, 12:35 PM
In addition to these points, camera systems are very expensive. If the rules are designed to favor the use of these systems, competition becomes more a matter of the ability to attract sponsors than the ability to build a good robot. Furthermore, most camera systems aren’t exactly lightweight. As a result, teams often have to forgo other types of sensors, which limits innovation and diversity and forces teams to improve their camera systems. Camera systems offer a significant advantage if a team is talented and privileged enough to develop them using high-quality and sufficiently expensive hardware. As example the bohlebots had a great at success using a verry expensive and complicated AI system.
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Theo | Mathimazierer — 7/10/26, 8:10 PM
So, first of all, in response to @Julius [Bodenseekoalas], I think you didn’t really understand my perspective on the big difference between the leagues. My point is that the strategies in the leagues are completely different. For example, in Vision, you can cover the ball by turning away from your opponent. In Infrared, that wouldn’t work as reliably because IR is way harder to cover up completely. And that’s only one example. There are also the obvious factors, like weight and size, which make a huge difference. About the argument given by @Tobias [Bodensee Devils] that good camera systems are too expensive, I can just say that’s completely wrong. The vice-world champion this year used (to my knowledge) this camera: https://www.seeedstudio.com/XIAO-ESP32S3-Sense-p-5639.html. It costs around 12€ and, by the looks of their performance, was working very well. It’s not about the camera; it’s mostly about what you make of it. On top of that, it also invalidates the argument that cameras are heavy, as this one is very lightweight and weighs around 15 grams.
Seeed Studio XIAO ESP32-S3 Sense
Seeed Studio XIAO ESP32-S3 leverages dual-core ESP32-S3 chip, supporting both Wi-Fi and BLE wireless connectivities, which allows battery charge. It integrates built-in camera sensor, digital microphone. It offers 8MB PSRAM, 8MB FLASH, and external SD card slot. All of these make it suitable for embedded ML, like intelligent voice and vision AI.
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To go back to one of @Julius [Bodenseekoalas] 's arguments, stating that we use the vision system from “Team Faabs”—which we definitely won’t deny—it’s completely open-source, and anyone can use it. So, there is no unfair advantage, because anyone can use that vision program if they would like to. On top of that, it’s kinda weird that you bring up this argument, especially when your school isn’t exactly known for publishing its schematics or changing anything in them. If I remember right, at the German Open, there was a big lynx at the bottom of your line-detecting board that I already saw when competing in 2024 on the robot of the “Bodensee Luchse”. The same thing applies to the IR-detecting board. So, it’s a bit of a double standard when you say that’s an unfair advantage, considering how many things you reuse—especially since you would still have the advantage if the ball returns to clear white and isn’t orange anymore. Lastly, I want to say something to @Julius [Bodenseekoalas] once again. You’re stating that if a team is talented and privileged enough to buy these camera systems… I first of all want to say that, as mentioned before, there are very inexpensive options that do the job just as well as more expensive ones. And if a team is talented, then they should have the chance to create something better than the rest; otherwise, it would be completely boring if no one with talent could use it. At the end of the day, money always does and will play a role, no matter the ball color, because of high-end motors, expensive sensors, etc. So, I don’t really see why there should be a change in this area. And what shouldn’t be forgotten either is that even when you don’t have much money to buy vision systems, you still have to buy new balls once again, which is very annoying.
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Julius | BohleBots SSL [CODE], — 7/11/26, 10:59 AM
So. Vision strategies and lightweight strategies are not very different from each other. At home we only trained against vision teams. And with that we got quite far as I’m concerned. Yes money does play a role but if you buy for example our system in a few years it will be way cheaper. We are using cutting edge ai chips and they are expensive in the future they will be cheaper. And I think a camera system will always have an advantage over IR because it’s way more precise (if you use the right camera system with the right software). But I think that changing the ball color to for example transparent and for the games IR and Open vs SSL you can just use the orange IR ball. Lastly if you’re skilled enough you can also detect a transparent ball via vision by removing the IR filter and then using object detection. We had that working also so it is possible.
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But the precision of the vision system is not everything. Everything else also needs to work properly. But changing the ball color to transparent and removing the option for clear misunderstandings would definitely improve the issue we had this year
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Elias Braun — 7/11/26, 12:14 PM
To be fair, there never was a misunderstanding. Red Leds are an issue for many years now, because many teams used them in open as well. This year the existing rules finally got clarified in that regard. And I think using camera systems in Infrared closes the step to vision, so we may see more teams move to vision in the next years. In the end, yes a camera system is more precise, but ir seekers are a lot faster, which correlates to the way faster gameplay we’ve seen for many years now. I would just leave the ball as it yes, especially now, when every team bought the new ball. And we hopefully see more teams exploring cameras and switching to vision im the long run
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FrozenToki [Alt+F4] [RLG], — 7/11/26, 5:36 PM
People that have the ball already could just buy a new shell
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FrozenToki [Alt+F4] [RLG], — 7/11/26, 5:55 PM
I could imagine that keeping the ball color as it is, could leed to the majority of teams using a camera based detection system, which would make it harder for teams to transition from entry to 2v2 IR. Also I feel like changing 2v2 IR to be more like 2v2 open would not be a great idea. Because If most of the 2v2 IR teams would detect the ball with a camera, then what would be the point of having two leagues.
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Tobias [Bodensee Devils] — 7/11/26, 7:18 PM
In my opinion, it wouldn’t make sense to leave the ball as it is, as @FrozenToki [Alt+F4] very aptly pointed out, especially given the renaming of “Lightweight” and “Open” to ‘Vision’ and “Infrared.” Even though camera systems are part of the innovation and should be further developed, they shouldn’t completely take over the Infrared League. @Elias Braun I don’t think the speed of camera systems is a major issue if they’re well-developed. There are already good systems in the “Vision” category that are fast enough… The argument about the balls that have already been purchased doesn’t hold water for me either. You can continue to use the orange balls if you don’t develop a camera system that recognizes the ball by its color. IR detection via camera is still possible with both types of balls. Most teams wouldn’t even have to replace their balls. The others can either buy a new cover or print one, as @FrozenToki [Alt+F4] suggested.
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William (Soccer Exec) — 7/20/26, 11:44 AM
The main reason we allowed the IR ball / made the IR ball orange was because it was a RoboCupJunior Soccer accessibility issue. Newer teams to RoboCup Soccer always ask - what is an IR Sensor? Where do I buy one? How do I use it? How does it work? Where do I find out information about it? There are almost* no COTS IR sensors that just work with the RCJ Soccer Ball → which creates a massive barrier of entry for new organisations. All the knowledge to do Soccer is institutional to those already doing it. Sure, better communication on our side with guides and tutorials would help, but only so much. Many new clubs wanting to start out are not going to have a soldering iron or the lab space to do custom electronics in. On the flip side, giving new schools / teams the chance to use cameras to start out, which are now widely COTS available - will lower that bar of entry. You can buy almost any raspberry Pi + camera + driving base kit and start working on a Soccer bot. Sure it isn’t competitive at the international level, but it is a starting point. Final point, Cameras are objectively worse in almost every metric to IR sensors - and we see this every year and all levels. Play 2v2 Infrared vs. Vision, and 9 times out of 10, Infrared wins. This gap is closing, but after 10 years, it still isn’t close.
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I do agree that having cameras allowed in ‘Infrared’ is confusing, given the naming scheme change… Poor foresight on my part
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Emil_2vs2_IROP — 7/20/26, 12:03 PM
I have never heard of a team participating in 2v2 Soccer that has not been able to build their own Circuits ( PCB, Veroboards ,even breadboards ). At the very least, simple Veroboard circuits are widely used across all teams. In addition, there are definitely COTS (commercial off-the-shelf) IR sensors available (for example, TSSOP sensors) that can be used with very little extra hardware. We also had great success using the old Lego IR Seeker V2 sensor with an Arduino. Therefore, I think there are plenty of options to track the ball without complex hardware. Furthermore, if you are arguing that teams cannot afford basic lab equipment like a soldering iron, they probably wouldn’t start in a 2v2 league in the first place. They certainly wouldn’t be able to afford a “simple” Raspberry Pi and camera setup. A basic Pi 4 setup—which isn’t even that great—costs at least 150 to 250 Euros for one set of cameras, bringing the overall cost per team to 300–500 Euros without any backups ( not to mention the cost of a Raspberry pi 5 ( needed for expanded camera tactics) for around 250-300 euros (overall 500-600 €)). So I think that would not be realistic to argue. Especially since, you pointed out, cameras at this stage are not even better than simple TSSOP or Lego sensor setups.
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Emil_2vs2_IROP — 7/20/26, 12:16 PM
And for what reason do entry-level soccer leagues exist in so many countries? Especially in Europe, nearly every 2v2 team started out in a 1v1 league. Consequently, these teams have already developed their own measurement techniques for tracking the IR ball. If developing such a system were truly such a huge problem, there wouldn’t be so many teams successfully getting the job done—detecting the ball without any fancy hardware or expensive equipment.
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David (Soccer Committee) — 7/20/26, 12:43 PM
@Emil_2vs2_IR this is a bit of a survivorship bias thing: the teams you actually see are the ones who where able to make it - any team that looked at what’s involved and decided to go do something else you don’t get to see. The fact that we do see (even in Germany) teams from schools that have that capability rely on the camera anyways shows that in practice this is a thing. In other regions we have heard from schools where they just went straight to cameras because they were cheap, available from sellers already approved by the school system and/or more aligned with what the curriculum was trying to teach.
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FrozenToki [Alt+F4] [RLG], — 7/20/26, 3:19 PM
Maybe it would be possible to make a tutorial in some type of form for a simple ball detection. Maybe with or without distance, but like a ring of tssp58038 Sensors and an explanation on how to programm them to get the angle and maybe a distance value. That would help new Teams to quickly detect the ball with a price range of max 30€.
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FrozenToki [Alt+F4] [RLG], — 7/20/26, 3:27 PM
On the other hand I completely understand the points of using a camera, but again then what would be the points of two leagues.
- [RLG],
David (Soccer Committee) — 7/20/26, 3:29 PM
That is an interesting question that we should have a separate thread about. I’ll start one in the 2030-and-beyond discussion forum
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William (Soccer Exec) — 7/20/26, 3:34 PM
This as David said, is something we are evaluating. We have seen a relatively slow decline in Soccer participation over the last ~10 years, even outside of COVID. Soccer is only growing in 1 region from the Regional Representatives meeting reports. That region is Australia, one of the few that have rules that make easy entry for non-custom robots in 2v2.
- [RLG],
William (Soccer Exec) — 7/20/26, 3:40 PM
Agreed, but it would need to be cleanly wrapped up - maybe just a USART stream of just direction? A plug and play sensor, like many others available for purchase. Specifically not amazing, but enough to give a solid heading to students, so there is reason to upgrade / design their own later
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FrozenToki [Alt+F4] [RLG], — 7/20/26, 4:02 PM
I think it would be better to show how people can make their own simple ir ring instead of just buying a finished product, but I don’t know if that would be possible.
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David (Soccer Committee) — 7/20/26, 4:03 PM
The other question is if this is realistic - if you can’t buy something and probably reuse it for a number of years many schools will not be able to start because they cannot be sure they will have a budget for another run of PCBs and parts next year.
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We even had inquiries about simulation because doing hardware is hardly possible at all - if we want to be accessible we have to make it as “step by step” as possible to start with something where you don’t yet build everything yourself and work up from there.
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FrozenToki [Alt+F4] [RLG], — 7/20/26, 4:18 PM
Yeah I completely understand that, but why cold an self made ir ring not be used for a few years?
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David (Soccer Committee) — 7/20/26, 4:20 PM
Have you seen children break things? The relative indestructibility of Lego was a big asset (while they were still making robots)
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Which is not to say it can’t last years - but if it basically will unless someone actually destroys it on purpose that is a big selling point.
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Tobias [Bodensee Devils] — 7/20/26, 5:10 PM
@David (Soccer Committee) , I get the point about survivorship bias. But I don’t think the solution to the problem is to keep the ball orange. If you can build two robots that detect the ball using infrared, you can compete in the IR League. If you want to detect the ball using an image processing system, you can compete in the Vision League. If you’re not able to build two robots, you’ll never be able to compete, because to solve this problem, RoboCup would have to provide more or less a complete set of robots that you’d just have to program. But I think that’s a completely different problem than the ball’s color. I suspect the issue of accessibility needs to be addressed in the entry-level leagues… Although I do like the idea from @FrozenToki [Alt+F4] of an ball-detection sensor similar to the RCJ-COM module provided by RoboCup.
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David (Soccer Committee) — 7/20/26, 6:02 PM
You’re right - not least because we don’t currently use the orange ball in the 1v1 Entry leagues…
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Which is also a suggestion I have heard and which should probably be a separate debate.
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Julius | BohleBots SSL [CODE], — Yesterday at 10:50 AM
I wouldnt say that ~60fps is not enough with a 640x640 resolution
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Elias Braun — Yesterday at 10:53 AM
never said that, if i remember correctly, we had something like 420x380 with 24fps
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Julius | BohleBots SSL [CODE], — Yesterday at 10:53 AM
ye and that is also enough for fast gameplay i think
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and i think precision > speed
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Elias Braun — Yesterday at 10:55 AM
from what ive seen, the it still moves faster, but yes, vision gameplay improved over the last years a lot
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Krtko | Slovakia (Compotes) — 3:17 PM
Hi, I would like to give my point of view. I was participating until 2018. Then I was the referee at our national level. Our team transitioned from lightweight to open basically when open started to be vision category. Overall we were on 22 competitions and saw a lot of approaches. From my experience I would say IR ball detection it’s clearly superior. You just need the right sensors, make ring out of them and you easily could get an angle from the robot to the ball a couple hundred or thousand times per second with basically zero latency. On the other hand, camera systems are slower. Most teams are happy with more than 30 fps. Usually have quite a latency and you actually don’t get an angle that easily. You also don’t see through other robots. That’s why teams in the vision category are way slower. So from my point of view you can use the camera in IR league, it’s still useful for goal detection and you can double check ball detection but IR sensors are superior for ball detection, so use of camera makes only things easier to transition from IR to Vision. It would be great if teams would not use red LEDs and parts. We had struggled with that a lot back in our days. Also the cheapest and actually probably best camera that you can use you already have in your pocket. Our robots used to use old nexus 5 phones. Somewhere on our GitHub you can find an app that sends angles of goals and ball to the robot via Bluetooth. Even when you count the price of phones (which you already have) our robots were cheapest at international level. Overall, I quite like the new orange ball and see it as a welcoming change. It also allows you to play friendly matches between leagues.